I owned an 83 Hurst/Olds, bought it brand new, same body style as the last picture, black with gray rockers, red interior, chrome Olds mag wheels and t top, compared to the "mid size fast cars of the day it flew,routinely raced that bitch and could beat super coupes and lemans. Nicest driving long hauler I ever owned, the Hurst lightning rod shifter was a joke but looked cool. Then I got married and my wife rolled the damn thing in a snow bank, Detroit locker rear end was shit on snow, got more compliments on that car and some day I will find one to collect

We'll actually be talking about the Hurst/Olds next week.

Nice article. I always liked the Cutlasses from the 1960s and 1970s. The 4-4-2, in particular, always seemed to be a cut above other muscle cars in sophistication and substance.

What Olds didn't seem to get in the 1960s was the importance of marketing and image. The cars were usually as good as anyting else out there, and in some ways better, but the division's image was far too staid, at least until the Toronado came along for 1966.

In 1965, for example, Pontiac ads were shouting about GTO Tigers and using very stylish artwork to make the cars seem even longer, lower and more glamorous than they really were. The television ads were just as effective and carried the same message.

Meanwhile, log on to youtube.com and enter "1965 Oldsmobile commercials," and you'll be treated to a series of black-and-white ads featuring a stern, short, middle-aged, balding guy barking out the attributes of the 1965 Oldsmobiles. He looks like a typical crabby high school principal. Hardly a great way to cultivate a "with it" image during the go-go years of the mid-1960s.

In the 1970s, Oldsmobile really hit its stride.
My parents faithfully bought Oldsmobile Delta 88s. Oldsmobile hit the sweet spot during those years with people like my parents. They didn't want a Chevrolet or a Ford (too common), but a Cadillac or a Lincoln would have been too ostentatious. Pontiac seemed to be adrift without any real image, aside from the Trans Am, and respectable suburbanites did not dream of baiting the police in a black-and-gold F-body.

Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth were hardly worthy of notice, and had questionable quality reputations even back them. Mercury was a glorified Ford. The only real alternative was Buick, although my parents, if they had been willing to stretch a little, would have considered a Ninety-Eight. That was their "dream car."

Meanwile, many younger people were buying the Cutlass Supreme coupes. They were considered quite stylish during the day.

In some ways, for people of a certain age, it's still hard to believe that Oldsmobile went away. But then, we would never have believed that GM could go bankrupt, either.

You're absolutely right, and it's important to note that Oldsmobile advertising is exactly what GM corporate management thought their marketing should be like. Pontiac's aggressive approach gave Jim Roche and Fred Donner (GM's chairman and president in that period) absolute fits -- they were constantly making angry calls to Pete Estes and later John DeLorean, telling them to tone it down. DeLorean said Roche particularly hated the tiger theme. By 1967, the corporation demanded that Pontiac show them all ad spots before they ran, trying to keep it in check. Once DeLorean left in early 1969, subsequent Pontiac management was much more acquiescent, which is why (as you note) Pontiac's image was sort of adrift in the seventies.

When I was a kid, we owned a 1962 F85 4-door up until 1977. It was a fine car, but the generator charging system just wasn't reliable. I remember changing brushes on the generator several times with my father and the voltage regulator a few times as well. The 215 V8 was a great engine. We never had any problems with it. The induction sound was intoxicating. Someone actually offered to buy the car to use the engine for racing.

The model we had was basically a stripper. Manual steering, manual drum brakes, manual windows, no air-conditioning. Nothing. Just an engine, transmission, body, 4 doors and that's it.

As far as the transmission, I could have sworn it was a Turbo Hydramatic.

I remember many fine summer days driving with the windows down and enjoying the wind in my face.

The 1961-1963 F-85 and Cutlass used the Model 10 Roto Hydramatic. Other than the name, it had nothing in common with the later (and far superior) Turbo Hydramatic. The Roto Hydramatic was essentially a scaled-down, simplified version of the old dual-coupling H-M, removing the front planetary gearset (cutting it from four speeds to three) and fluid coupling and adding a stator to the second coupling to make it a torque converter.

The Turbo Hydramatic was also a three-speed torque converter automatic, but the similarities ended there. The THM used a Simpson gearset, and its operation was very different. It was also positive and durable, which could not be said of the Roto Hydramatic.

I own a 64 f-85, has a 308 with center console,tach, and bucket seats. Two door. Can't find any information about this car. Any thoughts?

A 308? Cam? Engine?

A stock '64 F-85 or Cutlass would have a 330 cu. in. engine (with either 230 or 290 gross horsepower, depending on carburetion); that was the only engine available that year. If it has an Olds 307, it's the result of an engine swap -- the 307 was a much later derivation of the Olds small block, introduced in 1979 or 1980.

Olds did have 308-degree camshafts for both the small-block and big-block engines; it was used on the W-31 engine a few years later. I'm not sure if that cam would work with a 330, but I wouldn't be surprised.

The buckets, console, and tachometer were all regular production options, so there's nothing particularly unusual about those.

The 1967 white "442" with blue stripes is a clone and a poor attempt. A true 442 has a non-functional louvered hood, blacked out tail light surrounds & trunk strip and the grille bar on the cutlass model was the thick one pictured here.
Sorry, I spent allot of time researching them whilst looking for one for my dad to restore.

Okay, thanks. I've amended the pictures and captions; I don't have other photos of the '66-'67 4-4-2 to replace them with at the moment, although I'll looked to do that in the future.

As the bean counters slowly usurped the reins of GM, marketing became even worse as was demonstrated in the 90's with their ad "This is not your father's Oldsmobile". It certainly wasn't. That was a 442 and your grandfather's was one of the Rocket 88's with all their racing accolades. It showed how little marketing pinheads knew about the history of their own company. Not surprising, it was the first to get the ax. So, Pontiac's next and I guess it'll come down to one car, probably Chev, which will be nothing but a Toyota with Chev decals.

Just stumbled upon your site recently (a reference from TTAC), and I have to say, I'm hooked. I see you also have an article about the Hurst/Olds, but what about the forgotten Olds factory hot-rod, the Rally 350, often referred to as the "executive's hot rod"?

I owned a '69 442 from 1979 to 1981. My car was equipped with the 400 C.I. V-8, Muncie "Rock Crusher' 4 speed with factory Hurst shifter, 3.73 12 bolt positraction rear end and the Tick-Tock-Tach. The '69 442 was a torque monster and a pretty good handling car for its size. I autocrossed the big Olds very successfully against Mustangs and Camaros since the Olds was always bumped up to the pony car class.

The Olds had a hard life before I bought it. I straightened out the body and painted it Charcoal Gray to offset the Dark Red interior and Black vinyl top and finished it off with black stripes. I sold the car to a 16 year old in the fall of 1981. The last time I saw the car was in Youngstown, Ohio around 1985. It is one of the few cars I wish I'd kept.

I bought a '67 Cutlass Supreme , 330 c.i. , Super Fast on top end . I totaled it @ 6000 miles and put the engine in a race car . It was sold as a " Dimonstrator" Head parts from a 330 wouldn't fit , had to use 455 parts . In 1968 the W-31 , 350 c.i. came out . What is this engine , all matching #'s , excellent condition worth ?

Sorry, I'm wholly unqualified to appraise either engines or cars -- not my area!